This is a fascinating interview that really gets down to the crux of what we’re facing, and how far we are from even understanding what it is that we’re facing.
His dismissal of Avatar notwithstanding, read this interview to the very end (it’s long).
Two small excerpts:
On action and knowledge during the 70s being stymied:
The one thing that was missing in that dialogue in the Seventies and Eighties was that nobody was really talking about strategy. How do we convey this as a message? We made the assumption, at least I sure did, that all people needed were the facts, data and logic. That meant more articles, more books, and then pretty soon they’ll see what’s at stake. I think we missed the whole issue of how you motivate people and how you actually move the dialogue. I don’t know that even if we had tried to do that, I don’t know that we could have done. I know that I went to meetings in the Seventies and Eighties, talking about the politics of these things and I don’t think people got how important the political dimension was, even at the local scale, the national or global scale, I don’t think people were understanding it.
On geo-engineering our way out of this mess:
We’ve come to a point now where some people, like Stewart Brand, are arguing that we’ve got our backs to the wall and maybe we have to be ready to do things that otherwise we’d prefer not to do. I’m not a happy camper with that stuff. I think that’s a way to try to prop up the Western project to dominate nature and with ever more heroic technology, and it will fail ever more catastrophically and spectacularly, to the point where you’re trying to geo engineer the planet, and well who the hell knows enough to do that?! How will you ever adjudicate the differences, if you’re going to increase rainfall there, decrease rainfall someplace else, tell me how you adjudicate those decisions, let alone know what you’re actually doing. …we don’t have the ecological know-how.
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Stewart Brand depresses me. He’s brilliant in so many ways–from the Trips Festivals to the WEC to The Well, he knows how to communicate. But his advocacy of nukes just strikes me as absurdly irresponsible.
I agree with Orr in terms of “the arts,” especially movies. I didn’t see “Avatar”–lost any interest in fantasy and gee-whiz techo-cinema decades ago–but I read countless comments on FB by folks who were, you know, so so very moved by it. Moved enough to … do what, exactly? Tell others to go see it. Oh. Slacktivism at it’s finest. And music and novels are even worse places to try to get across a message–there’s nothing worse than a preachy song unless it’s a “novel of ideas.”
On a happier note: in re “To have towns networked across the world that are part of this larger cosmopolitan dialogue of human presence in the world,” I was listening to an NPR story today (hey, I was stuck in the car) in which someone from Gainesville, Florida, which is greening up big time, described a contingent from there visiting some city in Germany–I’d have to look it up–to learn from them about their success with electricity feed-tariffs. They adopted what they learned, and are about to be visited by folks from Charlotte, NC, looking to implement similar plans. So, sure, there’s some hope to be gleaned along those lines.
How to communicate seems to be at the heart of this interview. I don’t know. WE don’t know. We do know that after all the bluster around Copenhagen and 350.org and all that, LESS folks than ever “believe” in “climate change,” or the fact that it’s human-influenced. Part of the problem is that we want our disasters quick-and-dirty … just like in the disaster movies: ka-boom, catastrophe, followed by heroic rescue. Creeping catastrophe? We’ll deal with that tomorrow, even if, in fact, it needed to be dealt with yesterday.
But another part of the equation is that most enviro-stuff is kinda boring. What impresses me? The camp-outs on the common. Creative, pressworthy, and shows real conviction–especially if you’re willing to be arrested. Annie Leonard’s stuff (so to speak)–brilliant. I’ve watched her animations over and over, studying them. They’re emotional and tad angry without being hysterical, they’re eye-catching, they’re funny, they’re short, they’re introduced by someone who could be a soccer mom. (They’re the opposite of being harangued by Al Gore, or James Hansen or Richard Heinberg, for that matter–they’re brilliant and essential theorists, but they put me to sleep–and I’m a fan of what they’re saying). Leonard’s clips suggest simple personal, cultural, and governmental responses–change we can make, without a lot of scientific gobbledeegook. I’m also a huge fan of PETA. And not just because I like naked people–but because I know that naked people get attention. Old white guys in suits? Hah.
I’d actually abandon the whole “350.org” game. It requires infinitely too much explanation. Hell, you can spend 5 minutes just explaining what “parts per million” means to the average American, never mind getting into carbon etc. And the stunts were just that–one-offs which I think did more for the participants than for audiences. Maybe because they were no-risk: you climbed the mountain, unfurled the banner, came home to a nice dinner.
I’d like to make the case that real resistance–none of that namby-pamby “NVCD” stuff, I mean the real thing, the kinds of actions that do in fact fuck with the system–hold some promise, but they generally just backfire, and your average suburbanite isn’t likely to join a movement based on seeing his neighbor’s car dealership torched.
I really have no idea. I know that the left has and is failing miserably at communicating in regard to most everything these days. At least McKibben was tryingsomething new. We forget, I think, how much competition every word we write has. Think of all the cool shit I could be reading and watching and playing online–now tell me, how are you going to hold my attention with a dry-as-dust standard-issue “press release” or “statement?” I’m a click away from The Onion, Maxim, and endless hours of glam-rock footage.
One thing I’d suggest: teaching by example. If you want to make a point, live it. To stop flying around to goddamned enviro (or any other) conferences on jet planes would be a good start. Live in 400 sq. foot habitat. Don’t eat any factory-farmed meat–hunt as much of your meat as you can, forage what produce you can, and grow as much of the rest as possible. Stay out of cars (and stop holding political meetings that require people to drive halfway across the damn state four times a year!!!!). Don’t buy anything you don’t absolutely need, and don’t work for companies that create or provide anything but essentials. Shower once a week and don’t flush every time you take a leak. And on top of that–show folks how freaking joyful you are. If you’re making over 30K, take a pay cut, or give anything over that to charity. In other words, show that the life you are advocating we live in the imminent future IS livable–and that it ain’t so bad. If you need help, read Scott Nearing’s The Making of a Radical and Living the Good Life. There’s a reason why so many folks feel Al Gore is full of shit, you know…